JESSICA: I liked that part of the book where it talked about we're tempted to go to the debugger when there's a problem. But if you go into the debugger, you don't know how long it's going to take to find the problem. But if you back up, you know exactly how much time it's going to take to back up. And the time you put in is the maximum time you can lose. So, the time lost is constrained by backing up. And it's completely open-ended if you get into the debugger.
MARTIN: Yeah. In many ways, I think as refactoring and test-driven development which obviously goes very close with refactoring, is all part of the plot to make us no longer use debuggers.